Comparing the 2023 and 2013 Knicks
Let's break down two of the best Knick seasons now twenty years apart
Not only are the Knicks enjoying their best stretch since 2013’s 54 win season but over the last 39 games - the New York Knickerbockers own the league’s second best net rating and are currently sitting on a 5 game winning streak.
Friends: The vibes are good.
So good in fact I often find myself saying “is this team…better than the 2013 team?:” And just like Kombucha girl of 2019 I think: “yuck…no …wait… nah…weeelll….maybe?”
So I took the 2023 Knicks results so far and pro-rated them out to 82 games to better argue the following categories: Results, Scoring, Defense and Roster.
Let’s get into it.
Record/Results:
Knicks 2012/2013: 54 wins. Playoff Wins: 6.
Knicks 2023 adjusted: 46 wins. Playoff Wins: TBD
Before 2013 throws their victory parade let’s make our case for 2023 shall we? In opposite fashion to the year prior, the ‘23 Knicks campaign started with more downs than ups only to pivot toward an improbable winning stretch going frustratingly unnoticed outside a 50 mile radius of midtown’s best - Pizza Suprema.
Since December ,the Knicks have posted a league, 2nd best, OFF net rating…7th best DEF rating … and are tied, currently, for the 9th best record in the NBA. Interestingly - many of the core roster pieces remain intact from 3 seasons prior (more on that later) and despite some huge misfires along the way we’ve mostly improved the roster.
The 2023 Knicks also face stiffer competition. As of February 27th, the 4th and 6th seed are separated by 2 games. The 7th and 11th seed are separated by 4 games and that 11th seed Bulls team is on pace for a 37 win season. The 2013, 11th seed, Pistons? They won 29.
Contrary to 2023’s gradual improvement, in 2013, a small part of me felt the margins were paper thin. There was an almost embarrassing over-reliance on Jason Kidd’s presence and following his exit the Knicks posted a 37 win record, then bottomed out to 17 wins in 2015. The 2013, second round playoff exit vs. Indiana, also exposed a lack of offensive creativity and porous defense leaving most Knicks fans with more questions than answers.
Even though the 2013 Knicks will ultimately have a more successful season of the 2… context matters.
Winner: 2013 Knicks (convinced steak level: medium)
Defense:
Here’s where things move a bit quicker. The 2013 Knicks were an offensive juggernaut. On the other side of the ball, however, the defense left plenty to be desired with ‘Melo and company ranking 18th in that category over the year. To their credit the 2013 Knicks did outpace today’s team by a whopping 173 steals but the 2023 Knicks, defensively, are better in almost every other category.
Despite a loooong stretch without their famed rim protector, Mitchell Robinson, The Knicks today are on pace for 35 more blocks, 367 more defensive rebounds, 531 more total rebounds and a potential top 10 defensive rating overall. The irony here is most eagle eyed watchers will tell you, in many games, the Knicks drop defensive scheme has failed more than it’s been successful because 2021 set the bar that this team can be better than ‘good’ when the effort is there to run it effectively. And again - there are way less bad teams to inflate these stats against than the 2013 Knicks faced so it’s not like these results have come easy.
Let’s also factor in 2023’s young gun defenders, Immanuel Quickley and Quentin Grimes, who have shown they can defend against some of the best stars in the league. This team has a bright defensive future.
Winner: 2023 Knicks (convinced steak level: well done. cooked. to a crisp)
Scoring:
Like the price of your Starbucks Mocha Frappuccino, NBA stats have also inflated to numbers beyond recognition. Knowing that, offensive stats will be a difficult category to compare but let’s try:
The 2023 Knicks are on pace for 403 more FG’s made, 112 more three’s, 148 more two’s, 299 more free throws, 164 more OFF REB’s, 254 more AST’s (!!) and …wait for it … 1,217 more total points. Yowza!
The 2013 Knicks though were a more efficient scoring program. Mike Woodson’s well oiled machine had 63 less turnovers than today’s squad and were a much better three point shooting team at nearly 38% (though worse around the rim at 49% vs 54% for the 2023 team). The 2013 team also ended the year with a top 3 offensive rating and considering the pace of today’s game - had an arguably higher ceiling. The most impressive stat between both has to be the delta in assists. The 2023 Knicks, quite simply, move the ball more.
Speaking of ball stoppers: what about the Carmelo factor? Though there is a lot more Carmelo Anthony in Julius Randle (and vice versa) than fans care to admit - Carmelo Anthony remains in another stratosphere. Frequently cited by opposing players as the most difficult player to guard in the NBA at the time, Carmelo Anthony sits top 10 in most points scored all-time and was a walking bucket in every sense of the word. Surprisingly, he only averaged 28.7 PPG that year but make no mistake - that number would be well north of 30 at today’s pace. And despite the 2023 Knicks hosting two All-Stars of their own (you heard me right) they don’t quite have that guy on the team yet.
Winner: 2013 Knicks (convinced steak level: medium)
Roster:
We can slice this multiple ways but we’ve already learned the 10 year gap in time makes stat comparisons a bit of apples and oranges. So instead of beating around the bush let’s light this candle and just go through some line-up names:
Brunson > Felton
Grimes < Kidd
RJ < JR Smith
Randle < Melo
Mitch < Chandler
Quickley/Hart > Prigioni/Shumpert
Hartenstin/Obi > Kurt Thomas/Injured Amare
Thibs > Woodson
That was fun wasn’t it? Nothing to see here to at all!
Look - plenty of discussion can be had but the take-away should be: pound-for-pound this conversation is dangerously close. Especially in the second unit. Some - like Brunson and Randle are clear but in Randle’s case you are still comparing two all-stars even if not two superstars. The jury is still out on RJ and the potential for an all-star caliber player is there … but JR Smith was a much more dynamic, if inconsistent, threat. Mitch and Chandler can be debated but the argument here, of course, is Thibs.
I get it - half the fanbase wants him fired. Half the fanbase is also wrong. The all out collapse in the following years of Woodson’s tenure lead me to believe that the team’s success was more rooted in the leftovers of Mike D’Antoni’s principles and Kidd’s play-calling than Woodson’s direct influence. Meanwhile, when pro-rating the 2021, ‘22 and ‘23 seasons - Thibs is on pace for a 44 win/per-season average in his 3 year tenure with two likely playoff appearances and a 2023 campaign that will post top-10 best ratings in both offense and defense. His first full season was borderline shocking in its success and oh - he won coach-of-the-year (his second time winning the award) ….almost forgot.
Thibs may not be the coach to take us to the promised land. But if we ultimately win a championship we may very well look back and give Thibs all the credit for these building blocks.
Winner: 2013 Knicks (convinced steak level: rare to medium rare)
Overall:
Though the Knicks today may need only one star vs. the oft-mentioned 2 … the 2013 Knicks indeed had their guy. And regardless of coach, bench or overall talent that discrepancy gives them the slight nod in this contest. But boy is it close. And if the Knicks end up winning a playoff series this year - don’t be surprised to see a few ‘author’s edits’ in this piece down the road.
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